Hi, we are the ADHD Skills Lab podcast. My name is Skye. And my name is Sarah. And we will be your hosts, chatting to you about practical ADHD strategies you can use, the research behind some of these strategies, as well as interviewing other professionals with ADHD about how they've developed skills and working through struggles in their lives. You might know us from Unconventional Organization, where we talk about this kind of stuff all day long. So we're super excited to have you along and we're going to chat through it together.

Hi and welcome to this week's research recap. This week, Sarah and I are gonna be going through some interesting studies on working, well, not working memory, perspective memory. We'll talk about why those things are confusing in a minute. Sleep, ADHD and obesity, and we will touch on another paper that we're not gonna go into too much detail, but is a good indication of kind of what we do in this podcast and how we. try and make sure that we bring you research that is up to date and is as peer reviewed and thought out as possible.

Activity-Based Prospective Memory in ADHD during Motor Sleep Inertia

So Sarah, should we start with the paper on ADHD perspective memory and sleep? Yeah, let's get into that one. So the paper is basically looking at activity-based perspective memory in ADHD following sleep. with ADHD were at remembering to do something as soon as they woke up. So if you've ever been in the situation where you go to bed and right before bed, you think, okay, tomorrow morning, I have to do this activity. I have to do this thing when I wake up. And then you wake up and you don't even know that you didn't do it because you forgot that you even had that thought. And if you didn't write it down, then it's gone forever. That's kind of what people are looking at here with the Prospective Memory Test. Very interesting study and kind of got us talking about memory in general. So Sarah, do you want to tell us a little bit about what is prospective memory? Sure. So prospective memory is basically just remembering something that you're going to be doing in this case, you know, participants had to press a button within 60 minutes of waking in the morning. And the quicker you remembered to press that button, the more excellent your score was. Um, what if you're a snoozer, wake up and then you press snooze for half an hour and then you press the button. So that's a really interesting point, which sort of brings us to the results. I mean, do we want to go there that fast though? I think let's just talk a little bit about, so what is prospective memory and then tie it's connection or lack of connection to working memory. Just because for a lot of you, if you've been working with us or listening to us, you'll hear us talk about working memory a lot, which is the memory where you're trying to hold something in your mind as opposed to long-term memory where that memory now is kind of something that you're going to remember forever. So a good example would be if you're leaving the house and as you leave the house, you think, when I get home, I need to put the washing on basically. The idea that you would get back and remember to do it, that's working memory. It's something that would sit in your brain as you go throughout whatever it is you're doing. Whereas coming home and remembering to put your keys next to the door, because there's a spot there where you always put your keys, that's more of a long-term memory. So what is perspective memory in that case? So the perspective memory is the first example where you sort of come home and remember to put on the load of wash. It's not necessarily like a habit that you have formed over time. Yeah, it's really just sort of being able to remember something that you said you were going to do, which does seem like there is some overlap with working memory. We sort of took to Google with this one and couldn't really come away with a full consensus, just sort of that they are not synonymous. We thought when we first looked into this, oh right, so we'll go and find additional research on the connection between working memory and prospective memory and we'll bring it to the podcast. But that didn't actually turn out to be the case as much, which was quite interesting. They seem to have developed concurrently, but not necessarily been connected. There is some papers connecting them. So if you're sitting here going, why are we talking about prospective memory? This is working memory. Well, the jury's still out. The academics are still trying to figure out how the theories work and connect together. So just a little bit of a side on that. Okay. So let's get into the methodology because it's really interesting. So Sarah, do you want to take us through like what they did? Sure. So they were really measuring a couple of different things. The first one, as we've already mentioned, was the perspective memory task. So they were trying to see how often someone would be able to remember pushing a button right after waking up. And then. That's a good question. Yeah. So, it's really interesting actually and when we get to the results, we'll talk about that. But they were also measuring a concept called motor sleep inertia, which is really cool. I've never heard about it before until this study, but it basically just means the amount of movement that someone does during the first hour of being awake. And they sort of measured that with like an Acti watch, like a smartwatch kind of thing. They wore it for one week. What were they trying to find with that one, actually? That's a good question because that affected. Yeah. So they actually wanted to investigate sort of if and how the activity based prospective memory task, the remembering to push a button, how that performance changed over time. So they had basically four groups. They had children and adults and each group had subgroup with and without ADHD. Yeah, so they were basically just evaluating how this changes over time. Yeah, that's really interesting. And then in terms of the results, they found that children with ADHD performed the worst in terms of this perspective of memory. By and far. Yep. And then adults, they also performed badly, but not as badly as children. Yeah, it seemed to sort of level out over time. The results were slightly different, but similar at least. Yeah. Cause they compared children to neurotypicals. So they had 22 children with ADHD, 35 adults with ADHD, 92 neurotypical children and 95 neurotypical adults. So quite a large number of what you would essentially call the control group. The control group is really big in this study. Yeah. But mostly if you were neurotypical, you did better at this essentially. Yeah, that's right. They got into lots of different. explanations for why that might be. Do you want to take us through some of them? Yeah, so part of the motor sleep inertia, sort of measuring how much movement you engage in the first hour of being awake was related to another concept I'd never heard of called the sleep inertia phenomenon, which is basically just being drowsy when you first wake up. And so they were looking at sort of that. that's why they were measuring the movement is because they wanted to see sort of how quickly people would be able to sort of regain, I don't know, consciousness. Yeah. So the reason that this sleep inertia phenomenon is so fascinating is because the existing literature on this topic shows sort of brain scans where when in this state, the frontal prefrontal pathways sort of are activated last. And the reason that is interesting for an ADHD person is because the frontal parietal network is just slow to wake and it's also considered a key component for perspective memory itself. So there were very specific reasons why they chose those two tasks. I'm actually surprised that the adults with ADHD didn't have a markedly worse result. And we can talk about why I think that is in a second, because I have some theories on that. Yeah. They seem to do all right. So Sky, take us through your theory. Okay. So I think the sleep inertia idea is really interesting because it's essentially saying that maybe people with ADHD, if it takes a while for our fronto parietal network to come on board, so basically the frontal lobe, the area that we have historically associated with, you know, executive functioning tasks, things like that, that really. brings our sleep morning routine into question, not, not into question exactly, but it kind of adds something to our morning routine discussion. One of the things we do with clients a lot and often first is we talk about their morning routine and we spend a lot of time talking about how to get up and out of bed, specifically that out of bed section. And we have, Sarah, you'll have examples where we've talked about like. put on a podcast, put something next to your bed to eat, or sometimes we talk about people take meds at different times and things like that. So there's all these things devoted to this, how, why can't I just get out of bed? I'm just supposed to be able to get out of bed. And so this is kind of an interesting look into maybe a little bit of why that is the case. Yeah, it definitely adds something to our sleep discussion and our morning routine discussion for sure. Yeah, in fact, if you are struggling to get out of bed, and get going, it might be your sleep inertia phenomenon coming through, which is, which I thought was really interesting. Okay, so the reason I thought maybe adults with ADHD did better was because the specific activity that they chose was pressing a button on their wrist, essentially, within a certain period of waking up. That is a super normal thing a lot of people with ADHD. If you have a watch that has an alarm, if you have any alarm in general, the idea that you would press a button when you wake up to turn something off or turn something on is really common. So the fact that it was then associated with this strange unusual task was kind of funny to me because I was like, I wake up and I just go. what am I turning off today? Especially if you have ADHD, because I have like three alarms and one of them might be on my watch. Yeah, I literally wake up, I have three alarms on my phone, different like levels of noise, depending on like what I need to help me get up. And then I have like, sometimes I also have an alarm on my watch, which is by my bed. If I really need to make sure I'm at this event, like I have a podcast appearance that morning or something like that. So. The idea of getting up and turning off a bunch of stuff is super normal, at least for me. And therefore, to kind of bring it back, a long-term memory, not a short-term memory or a prospective memory. It's a long-term memory thing in the same way as I come home and then I know I have to put my keys somewhere and I'm sort of looking around to, you know, okay, I put my keys there. To throw another term into the mix, sort of like muscle memory. Yeah, yeah, it is exactly. You're right. And we know from other research muscle memory is really amazing. I mean, they've done studies very sadly on people who've lost their memory for almost anything else, but their muscle memory continues to improve over time. So, you know, they've done studies where people who have no memory of the past are able to get better at a task day by day, even though they don't remember ever doing that task. So the muscle memory is really different. Anyway, that was my theory on why that might be different for people with ADHD who are adults as opposed to kids. Yeah, I mean, as soon as you said that, it just made all the sense. So if you're an ADHD person who's listening right now, and you agree with Sky, you can sort of comment and let us know. Yes, yes. Send me a message. Tell me all your memory sleep kind of theories. But it was a really good and very interesting study because it kind of opened up this whole conversation of what we're like when we wake up in the morning and whether that might be different with ADHD, which is a concept that I knew was something we struggled with because we talk about it a lot in coaching, but I didn't necessarily have the specific sleep inertia phenomenon language. So it's really cool to have that. I totally agree. Yeah, it would be a really neat thing to see if there's any overlap with. Like more research on this specifically for our population. Definitely, definitely. Hopefully new research is coming out and we can talk about it. Also just wanted to flag my personal thing in the morning is I just wake up and drag myself to the living room to do some form of exercise, even if it's just like a downward dog and then that's it. And, you know, movement is supposed to be supportive to your working memory. So again, I wonder if it's like a way of reacting against that sleep inertia. That would be interesting as well. Oh, that's a really neat way to look at it. And I mean, part of me wonders like how much movement is enough movement. Cause sometimes on really hard days, I just try to sit up first and let the blood come back to my body. Yeah. Sit up, lean forward, like all of these things that we've, for those of you who are like, yes, that is the hard thing. Yes. We talk about that in coaching. You know, it is a no judgment space. We all have those days and we all, we all sometimes need to talk about how to set that up for the morning. Okay. Let's go through some of the limitations and then we'll talk about the practical takeaways. So a small ADHD sample size, particularly compared to the neurotypicals. For sure. And you said skewed male, which is unusual, usually the other way around. Yeah. It has to be where they pulled their groups from, which is escaping me at the moment. Yeah. Also, they didn't check if their participants used a reminder to remind them to press, which I was really surprised by that. Yeah. I mean, well, so this is also probably like a recall sort of bias thing because it would have been the person did the thing and then told the researchers about it. So there's also that. That is a good point. That is a really good point. And then there was no conflict of interest, no external funding that they mentioned. So Sarah, what would you say is the practical takeaway? I know I saw you, you wrote some notes on here, so I'm just going to let you go for it with regards to that, what the practical takeaway could be for this. Yeah. So for me, the first thing I thought was that all of the issues that I'm having with my own child, waking up and remembering to do things. totally alleviated. I mean, it's a huge relief for me to know that we just have to sort of stick with that. And even if I'm not seeing immediate progress in his habit forming, just to have faith that we will get there. Yeah, I think that's great. I mean, I think that it's interesting with the idea of that long term memory versus short term memory, knowing that, you know, it might just take a while for something to become a habit. And that's going to be a factor as well. So yeah, no, very, very cool. And for maybe for people as well, just sleep inertia phenomenon, it's a thing apparently. So if you're struggling to get out of bed and that takes a little bit of extra time for you, then that might be what's going on. So definitely stick with it. The morning routine is really helpful, really useful, definitely something worth considering trying if you haven't done it already. So yeah, stick with it, try and turn it into a long-term memory. Awesome.

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Emotional problems mediate the association between attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder and obesity in adolescents

So the second study that we looked at is actually looking at the connection between ADHD and obesity. And I wanna start by just flagging that Sarah and I, neither of us have personal experience with obesity. This is not an area that we can really speak to or speak in. So we wanna kind of flag that at the start before we talk about this paper. So in terms of what they were looking at particularly, what they really wanted to get the sense of was if ADHD is a risk factor for obesity in children and adolescents, and this is what they were really looking at with children and adolescents, what were some of the mechanisms that were connecting the two and they were looking at the idea of anxiety and depression as mediating factors, which was really interesting. So Sarah, do you want to take us through kind of how they chose to do that? Sure. So they started with survey data from a large US-based health survey. So their sort of participant pool was like something like 25,000 participants between 12 and 17. They specifically excluded anyone with a learning disability or low IQ, things like this, and ASD as well. I guess they really just wanted to get a clear picture of ADHD and the impact and the measures that they were using here. They defined obesity at a BMI at or above 95th percentile when compared to age and same-sex peers. Basically, ADHD, yes or no. they used a parent self-report for that question. Also, obviously, they were looking at anxiety and depression scores, and similarly, those were answered by the parents basically surveying the child's mood over the past six months. This entire study could really be called parents survey responses of their child and what the parents thought about what was going on with the child. Yes. I mean, they're 12 and 17. I can understand why they might not have necessarily felt like they could speak to everything objectively, but it is interesting to note that they were really not included in their own study almost at all. Right. Yeah. This was an interesting one because it looks like they just sort of took some data and then ran a bunch of analyses on the different variables. Yeah. And I think that's really important. I mean, we always talk about who is the one. Is it a self-report? You know, is it an experiment? And then who is the person who's filling out the report? Is it a teacher? Is it the person? Is it a parent? Is it a combination of both? And in this case, it is the parent. And I thought it was also really interesting that they specifically asked the question, how they figured out if their children had ADHD was, has the child ever been diagnosed with ADHD by a doctor? So there is a bit of a self-report there. They're not asking for like evidence or anything like that. I did wonder how many people could be like, yeah, the doctor said they might have ADHD the one time and then that counts as a yes. That was an interesting question. Yeah, I mean, they specifically list that as one of their limitations is just that the diagnosis status is subject to recall bias. So there are possibly even some parents who should have marked yes, but instead marked no. So. Recall bias is always really interesting and it kind of comes into play in almost every kind of survey study. Yep. And this is just a PSA. Once again, if you do get a diagnosis of ADHD, get it written down. It's important. So in terms of what they found, they found that ADHD was a predictor of obesity and that they found that this was partially mediated by depression as well as anxiety. It did seem like depression was a bigger... mediating effect than anxiety when they came to children. And this was obviously, again, it was based on those parental reports. They had a few ideas about why. They talked about genetic vulnerabilities. They talked about differences in executive functioning deficits. They basically found that the relationship between ADHD and obesity might be basically related to. cognitive neurological factors, it might be related to emotional factors as well. And we've talked a lot about emotions and ADHD and the difficulty with emotional regulation here on this study as well. Was there anything you wanted to add to the results conversation, Sarah? Yeah, so I just wanted to say that because no actual study took place here, it was really hard. for them to sort of factor in any of this lifestyle and like genetic risk factor stuff, which is obviously a really important piece of any conversation about health. And the authors do sort of take the opportunity to say like the relationship between ADHD and obesity is not just sort of about behaviors, but a complex range of other factors. So, wow, this is, it's definitely a contentious topic. I think they knew that as well. Yeah. And they were bringing that conversation in as well. So yeah. So they found in terms of limitations, they did mention that parents may have forgotten that their child has ADHD. I also would like to flag when does it count as a diagnosis? If you go to your GP and your GP says, oh yeah, that's probably ADHD. Does that count as an ADHD diagnosis or is it? actually getting the full diagnosis because those two things are very different. So I think that would also be part of that limitation that they flagged there. The child's height and weight were reported by the parent as well, not clinically measured. So basically this entire study could, like we said at the beginning, be rewritten to say parents' perspective on their children for all of these factors. And our parents love them. They're very busy people. They might not remember all of the details. It also didn't include other variables typically involved in weights. They didn't discuss lifestyle or physical activity or sleeping conditions or anything like that. They were just focusing on these couple of things. And they didn't have any data on whether people were taking ADHD medication, which would have an effect potentially on whether people were struggling with any of these factors. Yeah, they mentioned ADHD medication. But I also want to flag medication for anxiety and depression. If they are struggling with anxiety and depression that might also be a factor. So say a parent says, well, my child is, his mood is really good. And they're not struggling with anxiety or depression because three months ago we went and got them maybe, you know, medication and they're not, you know, again, what we can take away from this is very vague because of the fact that it's all parental subjective reporting, which is interesting. Yeah. I mean, not to sort of like blame the parents and everything, but I can totally relate. The last time we went back to school shopping for my child, I bought everything in a size too small. I think we bought his shoes like two sizes too small. Yeah, I mean, I think we just didn't try anything on. They grow really fast, this guy. They do grow really fast. Actually, that's such a good point. I have. A lot of clothes for my son. And it's that moment where you're like, no, I'm really out of sleep suits, like that is it. Like it's not going to fit anymore. I need to buy more. Especially with ADHD. And again, you know, if your kid has ADHD genetically, you might have it as well. So it is again, you are relying on the working memory of people who might have ADHD as well. And it's a struggle. If you want to, we've talked about ADHD and parenting on this podcast. So definitely look at those, but we've, we have been there. So in terms of the conflict of interest, it was funded by the National Natural Science Foundation of China, which was interesting. So did this study take place in China? No, so this is a US-based survey. So it's like a census stuff. So it's only open to people in the US, but the data is just public. Yeah, that makes sense. And then in terms of just interesting things to discuss, they did have a little chat about the ADHD reward system, which is always really interesting to me. So in terms of the brain structure and function, they talked about the idea that maybe there's a connection between ADHD, anxiety, depression, obesity. Maybe these are all kind of affected in the brain's reward system. And I'm not going to go too much detail into that because. We can talk about that more when we get to a neuroscience study that focuses on this in more detail, but it is interesting to consider where does reward play into all of these conversations because that is something that we know with ADHD, we have a difference in our brain and how we process rewards. But given the nature of how the study was tested, I don't think there's enough research for them to really be making any predictions on that. So what are the practical takeaways? Yeah, I think... This is just another study that highlights the importance of sort of that hot executive functioning skill, the self-regulation stuff. Perfect. Yeah. I love finding opportunities for that. Yeah. I mean, because if you really look at the study for what it is and not sort of like an in-depth look into people's lives, really what this study is saying is that we should be getting treatment for our kids who might be struggling. Instead of just saying like, oh, they're just a kid, they'll grow out of it. Just start teaching them those self-regulation skills or bring them to sort of a professional who can do that. If you don't feel well equipped. Yeah. Or, you know, if you feel like you want to get yourself, you know, sometimes some studies have found that if the parents are learning the self-regulation strategies, especially if they're younger kids, I think in that context, that can have a positive effect on their children, even if their children aren't doing anything. So. It's like the whole family system. So just general learning self-regulation. I always come back to that really wonderful conversation we've had with Danielle about regulating your emotions together with your kids, and thinking about that in terms of self-regulation. It's important. It's something that we want to keep thinking about, keep using. It's probably going to be very helpful. The continual research in this area is definitely. a reminder about that. So yeah, emotional regulation is a real struggle with ADHD and we wanna do everything we can to support ourselves. And if you need help with that, we do have a few articles on the website to help you get started.

Lingering on Distraction: Examining Distractor Rejection in Adults with ADHD

Okay, so the last paper that we wanna just kind of flag, this is less of a paper, we're not gonna discuss it in any particular detail. So more of a behind the scenes of how this actual podcast works because we've been doing these research recaps now for maybe 10 episodes at this point. And we talked a little bit about what we do, but we kind of wanted to let you guys in behind the scenes of what we do and what we don't do. So essentially there was a paper that we were considering discussing. We have a research team who very wonderfully goes through every week and finds the latest research that's come out that week. And they test it for, is it peer reviewed? Is it, you know, looking at something that's going to be supportive of ADHD? You know, there is a lot of studies out there that just. are very negative and unhelpful that we don't discuss necessarily. And so we pick sort of three studies that have recently come out, but sometimes you'll notice there's two. And usually if there's two and we're discussing two, that usually means that there's a paper that we decided on balance after, you know, reading the paper, pulling out all the references, pulling out all the information we decided not to include. This one was so on the border that we actually decided maybe this is a good discussion of the decision-making process and then we'll also tell you a little bit about what the study found. This is a non-peer-reviewed paper, but it was something that was published in Open Science Journal by postdoc level researchers. It sounds really interesting for the people who have written this paper. And you'll see the link in the show notes. This is a great paper. You should definitely build on this and develop it, but we just decided not to include it here in any particular detail for a couple of reasons that we'll go into. So basically what this paper looked at was looking at distractions in adults with ADHD. How distracted are we when we, when we're looking at things compared to neurotypicals? So Sarah, do you want to take us through a little bit about what that meant in the way they tested it? Yeah. So. They used sort of an eye tracking task and they set it up in a few different ways. But basically they just wanted to see whether or not you could look, like bring your attention to the target object while ignoring the distracting objects. And they sort of did it in a couple of different ways, one in which the distraction was less obvious and one in which it was more obvious. So that's sort of what they were looking at there. They use lots of self-report scales as well. But they did have sort of a semi-structured interview process just to try to counteract that report bias that we were talking about earlier. Yeah. And what they found was really interesting. So it's not that people with ADHD participants, not that they didn't look at the thing. It was more that they tended to linger on the distraction with more refixations. So a good example of this I thought about was if you're in a workplace and somebody. is doing something outside. Like for example, somebody was washing windows outside. We had to pause this podcast for a few minutes. If something like that is happening, based on this sort of study and what they found, people who were neurotypical and people who had ADHD would both look and be like, oh, that's a thing that's happening outside. But people with ADHD would tend to linger on it. They would look more. It would be more of a distractor for them and it would shift their focus more than people who are neurotypical who'd be like, oh, yep. That's what that is clock that and kind of go back to what they were doing. We're like, Oh, but I wonder, you know, who are they? What are they doing? Yeah. Let's say, well, there's 10 minutes later. Yeah. And then of course the transition back into work. And we know that we struggle with transition times is research on that. So, so that's the study and that's what it found. And it was very interesting. Like I said, if you've read the study. I find that this is something we should definitely delve into more. But the reason that we decided in the end not to include it in the full discussion the way we usually do is for two reasons. One is that it wasn't peer-reviewed, and peer-review basically just means that it's been reviewed externally by other academics who've read it and said, okay, this fits the general standards. There's lots of controversies about that. I definitely want to just flag that there's lots of controversies about that. Ideally, what that means is that if there is something that is an obvious issue or a flaw in this study before we take it and we provide it as like, this is something we might want to have a practical takeaway from. Other people have looked and they said, okay, well, this is a flaw or this doesn't connect to the current research on this area and you should make adjustments and things like that. So that's kind of what the peer reviewed idea is. This study also combined. two different studies and they mentioned this right at the beginning. They said, for the sake of transparency, we disclosed that the study consists of a combined sample of two highly similar versions of the study. The first sample is from a dissertation project from one author, and the second sample is from another author's honest thesis project. We decided that because they're two different studies, even though they were conducted in parallel, they followed a lot of similar protocols, they were combined to increase statistical power and that We decided that it probably wasn't going to be something we wanted to stand by and have a conversation about in terms of like, oh, maybe this means something because of the fact that the statistical power was low prior to them combining those two samples. And that was, that was the conversation that we had before we came on this podcast. That's sort of the evil of statistics. Yeah, that's the, yeah, that's the tricky part about statistics. And, and so, you know, we do our. due diligence and do our best to make sure that if that sort of thing comes up, we check it and we're not including it if it's not going to be something that has a statistical power of that means that it might. Hopefully, what this means is basically, one, it is an interesting point. It is interesting to consider the idea that we linger on distraction. We know that from previous research. Two, that's the background process that we're going through when we are setting up for this. podcast episode. So hopefully that gives you a bit of a sense of what we're doing here as well. So interesting research. I think we've covered a little bit about sleep inertia in the morning, which I'm totally going to use. I'm going to tell you all that that's the thing. I'm definitely going to be, well, I like to say I'm going to be thinking about this when I wake up in the morning, but the truth is I'm going to forget. Prospective memory. Yes, exactly. So I'm going to try and remember to remember that this is a thing and see how I wake up in the morning and how long it takes me to actually get out of bed. I think that's such a fascinating idea. Also, you know, an interesting conversation about ADHD and obesity, sort of a beginning of that conversation. Hopefully, there'll be more studies, but also a conversation a little bit about what it looks like when a paper is completely done by your parents. And then yeah, just a little bit of a conversation about ADHD distractions and then also how we, how we do this research and hopefully, you know, if you have any ideas about what we can do to improve, you know, our goal is to provide you with the latest research practical takeaways to help empower you to feel like you have a better understanding of what's going on in this really fast changing space of ADHD and that you can advocate for yourself and really advocate for your kids and feel really confident in that. So. That's the goal. We want you to take you along with us, learn with us, figure it out with us, and hopefully come away feeling a lot more confident in your ADHD and understanding what it is. So if you have any ideas about how we can do that, definitely you can always reach out to us. Our emails are always free. So yeah, really, really interesting conversation. Always good chatting with you as always, Sarah. Thank you so much for being my co-host. I definitely couldn't do this without you. The accountability is real. That is the real factor, I think, here. It's the accountability for sure. Yeah, no, it's great doing this. I really enjoy talking about this stuff. And it also adds something to the everyday coaching life as well. Oh, yeah. The amount of times I bring the studies up, especially the motivation study a couple of weeks ago, that's just changed my whole perspective on everything. Awesome. Well, great to see you guys and we will see you again in two weeks for another research recap and we'll have a lot of interesting interviews in between. See you then. Bye. 

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